They are going to err on the side of caution by telling you they are incompatible but in this situation they are right. FIRST LOOK: Sig Sauer MCX Rattler, the Worlds Smallest Rifle. Caliber + 300 BLK; 5.56 NATO; 7.62x39 . Eric Poole and Tom Beckstrand test the Aimpoint Acro P-2 against one of red dot sights' biggest myths: distance. We really liked the handguard. After all, the eminently suppressible, hard-hitting .30-caliber was tailored for such gunscarbine and smaller that is. As to the tale of the tape, the gun has a 10.5-inch cold hammer-forged barrel (1:7 twist) and comes in at a very agile 5.8 pounds. The SIG Rattler is something special. On a full-size rifle or carbine, I think the relieved magazine well of the Saint Edge looks a bit small, but on this build it looks just right. The hammer and trigger components were treated to a silvery nickel-boron coating. One thing I would like to point out that seemingly even many owners of the Maxim Defense SCW and larger CQB braces and stocks dont seem to know is that you only have to use the button to collapse it. Thats pretty much what youd expect from a V-MAX. I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. So after that day it was on my dream list . Furthermore, Sig has a much higher percentage of parts and weapons produced in house, which allows them to control quality much more closely, where as Springfield assembles and builds only a fraction of their product line, AFAIK. The Saint is one of the most user-friendly versions of this user-friendly platform. It provides added backpressure for reliable cycling. As long as you are not expecting rifle-length performance out of a barrel this short, you wont be disappointed. I'm ashamed I even own one let alone was considering buying the Saint. I had several concerns due to its comically short barrel, its accuracy, reliability and velocity. The upper, including the mix of Picatinnny and Keymod rail, was more modern than the lower, which offered more traditional components, such as the plastic grip with single finger groove and the buttstock that was sans any padding. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win. Our Team Said: Priced at $900 MSRP, the Saint should be extremely competitive for first-time buyers. The upper circumference was reduced, guiding the index finger to the trigger. Both companies have reputations for occasional issues with their QC, but Sig certainly produces a higher tier product overall. Certainly, you get all the nimbleness and convenience of the configuration in 5.56. Logical on the surface, given faster twist rates are generally required for heavier bullets, but there is debate on the matter. I used two suppressors with the Rattler. The CMMG Mk4T was the tale of two rifles. I bought a Tread on a whim. Hence there are solid copper bullets for high speed applications in 16 inch carbines (1/6 rate or greater) that shoot 300 BLK, but the ammo is expensive. Eventually, ammo manufacturers answered the call, and now dozens offer 300 Blackout loads for a variety of uses. This is why the gun world is awash in top-notch 300 Blackout pistols. There was, however, a relief on each side of the handguard about 2.5 inches ahead of the receiver for attaching a quick detach (QD) button-style sling loop. Ive tested full-size rifles that werent any more accurate than that. The bottom line? 4. I usually have to take break between mags. Its very handy. The full-profile barrel creates a line that grows from a polymer handguard by Bravo Company that was flat on the sides, adorned with sections of pebbled finish for grip. Eight major concealed carry insurance programs are now available to the millions of Americans who carry concealed. Probably, but not at 900 fps. A PDW is not a rifle. We tend to the 7.5-inch SBA3 model, given its the rare smallster in the caliber that doesnt demand a kings ransom. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. These guns eventually faded awaypartially because of their ammunition and because it was easier to use a variant of the M4 Carbinebut the need did not. I dont own any Springfield armory but it seems they do one dumbass thing on every gun they build, but different every time. By 5george31 in forum Rifles Replies: 92 Last Post: November 3rd, 2016, 05:28 AM. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . Springfield has made some shitty moves in the past but they make an amazing AR. HKs MP7 has never been available in any commercial form. However, I ended up loving it for what it is. Actually, there is little here that would put off the sophisticated shooter as well. However, if youre shooting supersonic, its right on target. In fact, it wasnt that long ago that SIG was in a similar position. With the stock folded, the gun is only 16 inches long, making it the shortest 300 Blackout weapon on the market. If the Mk4T had either of the triggers found on the SIG Sauer or Springfield Armory carbines, it might have been the accuracy champ of this test. Not only did the 77-grainers shoot straight, this uber-short-barreled pistol grouped between 2.5 and 4 MOA with everything I gave it. Magazine release from the left side was a little easier if pressure was applied more toward the rearward edge than over the center of the button. That said, and this being Wilson, dont expect some off-the-rack experience with the gun. Sig isnt the most popular on the forum, but Ive never had an issue with my M400. Sig Sauer M400 Tread .223/5.56 Semi-Automatic 30rd 16" I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. Rather, the AR-15 is an ideal defensive weapon necessary for the legally armed defense-conscious American. Keep Reading. Knowing this, I still was dubious when I picked up the PDW from my local FFL. As far as apples to apples, do your research and see for yourself that you will get slightly better product with a Springfield compared to a sig, better coatings on barrel, BCG (both melonite) and a Nickel boron coated trigger. So goes the AR-556 line of ARs. With the shooter lined up on the center target, the object was to land as many hits as possible into the central A-zone of each paper target within a fixed 10-second time limit. With the brace fully extended, the pistol is 23.5-inches in length. He is a gun owner and avid reloader from Colorado. Thus, stabilizing subsonic ammo not an issue. My wife said I'm going to buy me a new gun which one do you think the Blue or Orange . Anything beyond 100 yards and that starts to fade. I installed it on an AR carbine but ended up taking it off, because while it felt good in my hand, it just didnt look right to my eye. The Barnes 110-grain TAC-TX had fully expanded by 7 inches, leaving a perfectly mushroomed bullet weighing 108 grains at 26 inches. The Springfield Saint AR-15 is a great entry-level AR-15 that is easy to use and customize. So, I spread the wealth equally. Measuring Performance A PDW is not a rifle. Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. Life has a melody. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. As was the case with the M400 Classic, the front sight was not visible with the Tango4 optical scope mounted. Whereas releasing the bolt is aided by the larger platform, setting the lock means pressing down on the smaller end. Let's pick up there. From the beginning, we discovered an inordinate amount of creep in the trigger. I have a lot of love for my BCM because it was my first full build but the Saint is a great rifle off the shelf. All in, our CMMG rifle displayed 1-MOA accuracy on average for all shots fired, despite our difficulties with the trigger. I wanted to see if the bullets would expand at close range given their lower velocities. We liked this because it simply wipes clean, making it easy to keep track of debris buildup and wear. The M400 tread is sort of a gimmicky rifle from Sig. OK, so they want in sending rounds waaaay downrange. An example that comes to mind is how the handguard that comes stock has mlok that only goes halfway down, and people complain about it getting real hot, and conveniently they sell a upgraded version with mlok that covers the whole thing, and effectively solves . At the rear of the receiver, youll see the Maxim Defense SCW brace. This muzzle devices primary role is as a muzzle booster for short-barreled guns and PDWs. It's The only Sig I have left I won't give up because I like it that much . To extend it, just give the brace a vigorous yank. And After shooting the CZ 75 Tatical sport orange I was in love . Joe Kurtenbach, Executive Editor of Gun & Ammo, and John Myles from Smith & Wesson discuss features of the Equalizer 9mm micro-compact pistol and new-for-2023 M&P 5.7. New! Compare. The SIG MCX Rattler is an incredibly handy rifle thats easy to conceal. Will it perform at greater distances? All Rights Reserved. If we were to describe the bolt lock/release assembly as a seesaw, the typical lower end could be seen as being constructed without the seat. Subscriber Services. It uses a specialized upper receiver that is designed to be as compact as possible. Whereas there is nothing special about the front sight, buttstock, or handguard, upgrades to the magazine release, safety levers, and the bolt catch are more expensive to manufacture or supply than a fancy handguard or buttstock. A few times the bolt wouldnt lock back after firing the last round with the SilencerCo Omega 9K in place. Written and photographed by Roger Eckstine, using evaluations from Gun Tests team testers. As to the brace, its a Tailhook Mod 2, an adjustable model that does an excellent job of settling in the gun. Their latest addition is the Saint Edge PDW AR pistol, and Im sure it will get its large slice of the AR pie. To change the shooters perspective and in effect reduce target area, we staggered the targets. With the Saint Edge series of ARs, you get nicely sculpted lower receivers machined from billet aluminum. Bought separately, the SCW (with this H3 buffer) retails for $590. View Product. ". Get the 76th edition of the World's Greatest Gun Book. Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more. Compared to most everything else on the market, the 10.5-inch barrel (1:7 twist) pistol is an absolute Cadillac. While the plastic handguard and the buttstock showed a little bit of play, fit and function of the more important parts of the M400 Classic were exceptional. Please keep us posted. It may not display this or other websites correctly. The only difference are the built in QD mounts to any other lower. The Sig Rattler would fit the description of what your looking for perfectly with a 5.5 in .300blk barrel and no buffer tube. Wilson Combat SFX9 5-Inch Solid Frame 9mm Pistol: First Look. Probably 2k rounds through it and has always gone bang. models. Is the Rattler a precision instrument? Elwood Shelton is an online content developer for Gun Digest. Both of them are chambered in uncommon, proprietary bottleneck cartridges, the 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, respectively. The free-floated handguard offered Keymod machining on three sides, and the Picatinny top rail extended 11 inches from the receiver. Learn how your comment data is processed. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. I fired the PDW at both an indoor and outdoor range on a cloudy day. It has a cone-within-a-cup two-piece design reminiscent of the Noveske KX3. The 2nd pic is from the Sig website.. SIG Sauer has just introduced their latest offering in their tread series of rifles with the introduction of the SIG TREAD Snakebite SE. You get what you pay for, in this case a pistol loaded with the companys high-performance custom parts and extras you wont find on economy models. What surprised me as much as the complete reliability was how soft-shooting the PDW was. The 300 Blackout pistol model is no different, but few shooters miss the bells and whistles with a gun that goes bang with every trigger pull and hits the mark. Looking past the outdated grip and buttstock, this is a very good rifle that deserved a much better trigger. I can't get my hands on the DD5 which I really prefer. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201for-carve-out/, http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685, https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017cal-gun-dealer, http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/5406606027600/, St. Gabriel Possenti Patron Saint of Handgunners, If this is your first visit, be sure to Spring loaded at rest, there was a platform on each side that released the sight instantaneously to its vertical position. The gas block is pinned in place. Filter SIG MCX . Apr 24, 2017 The top tier AR-15 rifle offered incredible performance at a very reasonable price. If you need a discreet weapon for 100-yard engagements, its perfect. I really appreciate the input. check out the. The lower is mil-spec, so an upper change is no different than any other lower. Stocky's Owner Don Bitz walks David Faubion through the company's new rifle stocks for 2023. At first glance, I thought the PDW was ridiculous in both appearance and performance. Sure, but thats not its sweet spot. Im a lefty so the gas hits me right in the face. Love this gun . Even knowing how short the barrel is, I was surprised at the low velocities nothing produced over 2,000 feet per second (fps), not even Black Hills hot 50-grain Optimized TSX load. View Product. 300 AAC Blackout. Honey badger .300bo 5. Sig MCX rattler 5.5" 300bo 2. No, but it was never designed to be. SIG Sauer MCX-SPEAR: Civilian Version of XM7 Rifle Arrives! Get the latest news and reviews from Gundigest.com. A final note, the Protector is a very shootable pistol, thanks in part to its heft (a shade under 6 pounds). According to the Sig Rep on ARFCOM: "6.75"/LVAW barrel was/is not made to be fired unsuppressed. Caliber: 300 AAC Blackout-MSRP: 1015. The heavier 120- to 125-grain loads performed similarly. Both suppressors were more effective than, say, a flash suppressor or muzzle brake, but dont expect the gun to be as quiet as those shown in the movies. But its really a 100-yard rifle with supersonic ammunition. The Springfield Armory Saint Victor .308 was announced 2 months after SIG had secured the sale with India in April 2019. For sling attachment there was a fixed steel sling loop at the heel of the butt plate, or you could utilize the slot that ran parallel to the buffer tube beneath the cheek piece. So, as you can see, this is the ultimate platform for a protective detail, SWAT operations where concealability is paramount, or vehicle or home defense with responsible citizens. This is the MCX Rattler. A late adopter of the AR, Springfield Armory has since risen to the top of mid-priced configurations. Barrel-twist rate was 1:8. Save my name and email to use for future comments. As such, the challenge for Springfield Armory was to offer an AR-15 that distinguished itself from the competition and was affordably priced. Why pay more? Knock off mp5 in 9mm I had a mpx pistol 3yrs ago and while funseems about 100% pointless knowing todays ballistic capabilities of the 556 &300. blbennett1288 Rivet. More money for ammo, Fsatureless affords full capacity magazines, @bamaengineer may i ask why you would choose the Sig over the Saint? At the Impact Zone Range, our rifles shared a $420 1x20mm SIG Sauer Romeo 4b Compact Scope with a tiny 2-minute-of-angle red dot. I usually rent them from my lgs and/or borrow my friend's. Comfortable to hold, the handguard offered the most versatility of our three rifles. Springfield Armory SAINT 5.56 NATO [MSRP $919] - Bravo Company Buttstock/Pistol Grip/Handguard/Trigger Guard, Nickel Boron GI Trigger, 16 Melonite Barrel w/ 1:8 Twist. I wrote SilencerCo another letter, under a different email. Both rifles have a similar price, $809 for the Saint with discount code and $799 for the Tread. The companys thinking must be a suppressor is going on there anyway, so cut costs with the standard muzzle device. The Springfield Armory Saint Edge PDW brings to mind a saying from Rush Limbaugh: Illustrating absurdity by being absurd. It offers, at least when compared to a standard rifle/carbine, compromised ballistics and a nearly comical appearance, and I havent done executive protection work in quite some time. Please give me your thoughts and opinions! To the average shooter the price tag doesnt quite reflect it, but the Protector is top-shelf Wilson Combats entry-level 300 Blackout pistol option. Fun as all get out to rattle off the range. Brand: Springfield. To this end, the Protector boasts Wilsons excellent M2 two-state TTU trigger, factory set to between 4.5 to 5 pounds. Visually, this made them less obvious. The selector switch is bilateral and works just fine. One last more subtle upgrade was the trigger guard from Bravo Company that left more room for a gloved finger without necessarily having to unlatch the bottom panel. I suppose this is due, in part, to how much gas is escaping out the short barrel past the bullet instead of gathering force behind it as it would in a longer barrel. Operation was very smooth and secure. Barrel-twist rate was 1:7, and breaking down the rifle revealed a reduced-mass hammer. Concerning these small-but-potent arms, they're pretty dang slick in 5.56 NATO, but sing when chambered 300 Blackout. But it was visible when we used the Romeo4 red-dot scope. For a full answer to that, were going to have to explore exactly what a PDW is, but before I do that, lets look at the specs of this gun. But if you want range, get a longer-barreled rifle with a slower twist rate to optimize 125-grain loads. Listen to both sides of the story before you make a decision based on one magazine article. It opened up at about 3 inches and penetrated 12.7 inches, retaining 192.8 grains of its original bullet weight. This is a 100-yard rifle. The new RIA 5.0 Sporting Pistol from Rock Island Armory features a patented RVS Recoil system that maximizes barrel mass and linear movement to give shooters super soft recoil. The "Tread yellow marking" is just an mlok insert, mine didn't even come with one, but you can easily remove it. The only spot on the Rattler is its trigger. Meet the all-new Taurus Judge Executive Grade, a revolver featuring a hand-polished satin finish, presentation-grade wood grips, a brass rod front sight and an exceptional hand-tuned trigger. Springfield currently doesnt have any plans for a version in .300 AAC Blackout, but (hint hint) it would be a very smart move, as the .300 BLK performs much better out of short barrels than the 5.56. Most familiar with ARs know you dont have to go out and buy one specially chambered for the want-to-be 7.6239mm clone. With the provided 20-round Magpul PMAG in place, the PDW weighs 5 pounds, 10 ounces. If the general shape of Springfields PDW looks a little familiar to you, theres a reason for that. Joe Kurtenbach and Caleb Giddings also look at the first-ever optics-ready carry revolvers with the new Taurus 605 and 856 T.O.R.O. Ive also thought the same thing about 20-round magazines in a full-size AR. I assumed shooting this gun would be like holding a concussion grenade in my teeth, but I was pleasantly surprised thanks to the Hate Brake. Barrel-twist rate was 1:8. The Judge has been promoted! SAAMI Accepts 30 Super Carry As New Standardized Cartridge, SHOT 2022: Federal Premium Announces 30 Super Carry Cartridge. I would deploy this as a dedicated entry rifle in a heartbeat. Now with the updated SAINT Edge PDW goes further, by going smaller. The two most well-known modern PDWs are the FN P90 and the HK MP7. We think this made the trigger a little more user friendly in that there seemed to be more time for the shooter to completely refine a shot. AC63A5C8-2987-40EB-B654-CFB78764D21B_1530751250330.jpeg. I have a sig elite which is similar to the tread, no issues solid rifle. Springfield Armory SAINT 5.56 NATO [MSRP $919] Sig Sauer M400 Tread 5.56 NATO [MSRP $949] - 16 Stainless Steel Barrel, Free-Floating M-LOK Handguard, . Springfield Armory of Illinois has been producing its own versions of the iconic M1A rifle for many years, but Springfield, like several other manufacturers, is known primarily as makers of handguns, or for that matter bolt-action rifles. Somy wife and i was having lunch with the Sig rep. and I asked about the .308 maybe coming out in the tread And he said soon which it did . June 22nd, 2017, 09:15 PM #2. . Wow just read the article on TTAG. Here are my personal Pros & Cons of the Saint Victor (FEATURELESS, CA Compliant version) Pros: - Comes with basic flip-up sights ready to go out of box - Full length M-Lok rail slots (TREAD seems to stop 8/10 of the way from the front) - Lighter Cons: - $1400+tax - 2 port MB rather than M400's 3 port (any difference in felt recoil?) It is everywhere and inexpensive, especially when compared to those two boutique cartridges. Wed prefer a free-float sling attachment, but the Saint is handsome and well made at a good price. The 300 rattler was designed to be suppressed. Can't wait to find the price on this and see one in person . The Premier Body Armor Vertx Collaboration Adds More Options, VIDEO: Police Snipers Train for Super Bowl LIV With .50 BMG, More, The MAUSER 98 125th Anniversary Limited-Edition Series, FIRST LOOK: Glock Just Very Quietly Unveiled the New Glock 47 Pistol, Police Sidearms: The Handguns of Americas 10 Largest Departments, Black Creek Labs MRX Bronco, TRX Bronco Hunter Rifles, CMP Surplus Ammo Coming Soon in M2 Ball, .30 Carbine & More, Active School Shooter Training: 14 Key Points to Consider, 5 Strategies For Effectively Completing a Tactical Reload, FIRST LOOK: Colt CBX Precision Chassis Rifle Ready to Compete & Win, 5 Common Myths on How to Survive a Gunfight, Understanding Stand Your Ground Laws and Castle Doctrine, Long-Distance Shooting: 5 Must-Know Tips For Spotters & Shooters, IMPACT Experience Events Redefine Your Long-Range Shooting Limits, Sniper Skills: Taking Your Shooting Precision to the Next Level. Over ten trigger pulls we never got the same reading twice. Saw that email pop up today. The Saint was the only carbine in the test that listed a heavy tungsten buffer among its specs, and it showed by delivering less felt recoil to the shooter. One new winner* is announced every week! Sig's new SnakeBite . Jeff Bradley shows off the Modern Hunting Rifle (MHR) from Christensen Arms at SHOT Show 2023. Caleb Giddings, Marketing Manager at Taurus, introduces the all-new TaurusTX 22 Compact. The Gunfighter grip offers an extended backstrap to shield the web of the hand and the knurled side panels that provided excellent traction. As to suppressibility, few centerfire rifle cartridges do it better. Our best-of-test group measured 0.4 inch across. When it comes to affordability, most figured Palmetto State Armory was going to show up sooner or later on this list. Pretty standard, yes, but the 5.56 rendition comes with Springfields forward blast diverter. To test this, I fed the PDW Black Hills 77-grain TMK load in addition to more traditional offerings. The visual theme of the Saint was that it looks to be one piece instead of an upper and lower, or as some say, it looks monolithic. With regard to accuracy, I wasnt just worried that a 5.5-inch barrel, which sports just 3.25-inches of rifling, would shoot minute of bucket, I was worried there wouldnt be enough spin to stabilize heavy bullets out to 100 yards. This video does make me feel better about Springfield. I just wish the right-side lever was shorter so it wouldnt bump my trigger finger when flipping it off. Boasting nice crisp break, the trigger also has a short reset allowing the gun to run fast. The only complaint is the 300 Blackouts A2 flash hider. The CMMGs single-finger-groove plastic grip is almost extinct because the divider can be uncomfortable and never really seems to be in the right place. The issue is, get it wrong, send a bullet yawling at the muzzle and youre contending with endcap and baffle strikes in your suppressor. The Rattler runs a very dependable gas-piston system, which eliminates all the fouling typical in these short-barreled configurations. Perfectly tailored to man the ramparts of your home. But thats what your 20-inch barreled baby is for, right? SPRINGFIELD ARMORY - SAINT 16" 5.56 BRAVO CO MLOK HANDGUARD, Sig Sauer M400 Tread .223/5.56 Semi-Automatic 30rd 16". Barnes 110-grain TAC-TX ammo was the most consistently accurate of the supersonics, with a group right at 0.75 inches. Choice of ammunition for AR-15s used to be limited by the 1:9-inch-twist barrel. Thanks for opening my eyes. The metal loop at the heel of buttplate was free swinging. . What sets the SIG MCX Rattler apart? Given the paperwork and money you spent on the can, is it worth testing twist-rates theories yourself? Don't wrestle with pigs, don't argue with idiots. Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. Springfield Saint with FDE, OD Green, and Stealth Grey Rattlecan Paint Job. But like you, I also bought the SA Saint Victor 300 BLK pistol, which is very well made. Your welcome BET7, I've looked at the Christensen Arms and pretty sweet , Also was dead set on getting a Danial defense DD4 after shooting it at the expo , but didn't . However, given the options available, there are plenty of reasons and opportunities to buy a complete firearm. And when the special operations community began searching for a new 300 Blackout PDW, Sig Sauer provided a solution with the SIG MCX Rattler. I am reminded that short barrels are inherently more accurate as there is less flexing during the recoil cycle. The new 9mm suppressor can mount easily to any pistol barrel threaded x28 inches and doesn't compromise on sound suppression, gas blowback or recoil. Purely on the rifle's features / traits wise, Update: im being told that both rifles are available for ~$1000 should I wait; i guess the extra $$$ is demand / price gouging for the saint. Using the Lehigh Defense ammunition, its a 50-yard rifle. To carry the Rattler discreetly, I used Eberlestocks Combat Office Brief, which represents a typical messenger bag, as well as several other covert packs in my inventory, including some camera bags. The buttstock was adjustable for length by compressing the lower panel running in line with the buffer tube. Target-left was placed 5 yards downrange, target-right 7 yards downrange, and the center target 10 yards downrange. Minuteman. It has a nickel boron coating and provides a single-stage trigger pull. Springfield Armory SAINT Victor AR-15s; WATCH: SIG Sauer M400 . That never occurred with the Dead Air Sandman-K, but the Rattler never missed a beat with either and ejected every case as fast as could I pull the trigger. Shooting the Black Hills 60-grain V-Max 223 ammunition, we were rewarded with five-shot groups that measured an average of just 0.6 inch across. Additionally, the gun has one of the best brace systems going, a fast-deploying affair that cuts the size of the firearm nearly in half when folded in. Units specializing in covert, ship-borne or hostage-rescue operations still wanted PDWs with more powerrifle-caliber power to be exact.